When there's a man 4 yards off the pitch playing him onside of course. Holland v Italy. At last a game with everything. Goals, saves, a decently taken corner, a decent cross, a decent free kick and a bit of controversy.
It seems that Van Nistelrooy's goal was perfectly legal under FIFA's offside law as Panucci was playing him onside despite being behind the goal after colliding with Buffon. In fairness to Donadoni he chose not to criticise the decision after the game. I can't think of many managers in the Premier League who would have let that lie. Good on him.
The second goal was absolutely fantastic. Counter attacking football at its very best. From about the only decent corner of the tournament so far to a terrific finish from Sneijder. And the third goal, another counter attack owed a lot to Dirk Kuyt's presence of mind to pick out Van Bronckhorst in the middle. I think David Pleat really loves Kuyt though. I'm not sure quite how many times he praised his work ethic - even saying he'd done 'brilliantly' when getting beaten by Fabio Grosso. And of course Tyldesley when pointing out that the first two goals had been scored by Real Madrid players just had to mention Ronaldo didn't he? Finally, Pigfoot mentioned Engelaar yesterday, I thought he had a terrific game last night and is the player I hope Tom Huddlestone becomes.
The other game was France v Romania and was utterly terrible. I missed the first half but it was bad enough even for Alan Shearer to give an opinion. The second half seemingly was little better. The Romanians can be happy with what they achieved, the French have to improve. Mind you, I was saying that after their first game of the World Cup when they performed similarly against Switzerland. Anelka and Malouda in particular were awful. Bet on them getting to the final.
Elsewhere Man United report Real Madrid to FIFA over the Ronaldo affair which is a little rich given their 2 year pursuit of Owen Hargreaves and threats of similar action by Bayern.
Arsenal it seems have won the race to sign Aaron Ramsey.
AC Milan are looking to hijack Man City's bid for Jo.
It looks like Roma are going to sign John-Arne Riise.
Stewart Downing is Liverpool's latest winger target. Apparently Benitez is unhappy at Newcastle's £7million valuation of Milner. Funny that considering his own valuation of certain England players.
Red Bull Salzburg is the likely destination for Everton's Andy van der Meyde.
Everton want to spend £16million on Joao Moutinho
Zoltan Gera will sign for Fulham after rejecting West Brom's contract offer.
Chelsea and Inter Milan are locked in a £10million battle for Deco.
Newcastle have offered £10million for Bafetimbi Gomis. He looked more like Bambi when he came on yesterday.
Andy Cole is Leeds' latest striking target.
Djibril Cisse could return to the Premier League in Wigan's colours.
Chris Samba is a target for Man City.
Henning Berg is the latest name to emerge as a candidate for the Blackburn job.
Kevin Philips please
Not Andy Cole.
Andrew
show him the respect he deserves as after all he's OUTSTANDING. V.I.P TO MY PRIVATE PARTY
He might well have been onside
but tonight Andy Townsend is going to be asked to explain/debate the decision, and then we're all going to suffer.
With his magic flat screen no doubt.
'Anelka and Malouda in particular were awful'
A sentiment I know only too well.
The match last night was great, although I feel bad for the Italians. They didn't play like a side who deserved to win 3-0. The commentators last night were yet again, utter gash though. 'One of the great European goals' blah blah blah 'No-matter who gets to the final, we'll still be talking about this' blah blah blah. It was good enough, but I don't rate the 3rd goal THAT much.
*lose
duh
If Kuyt
had scored then the 3rd goal might have been on a similar level to the 2nd, which was brilliant. It was a very very good game, but I don't think I'll be talking about it 8 years from now.
God no
I think the difference between the 2nd and 3rd goal is that while Van Bronckhorst, Kuyt and Sneijder pulled apart the backtracking Italian defence for the 2nd, Italy were a defensive mess for the 3rd. Made it much less impressive. Still a good goal, but not one of the greats
They've gotta hype it up though.
Have you seen the ratings? Uh oh.
Have they been bad?
I know loads of people watching it as neutrals and enjoying it much more, myself included.
Wasn't it the second goal they were on about?
After the 3rd goal
Tyldesley was off again....
I just assumed it was a continuation of what he was banging on about earlier
Surely ITV realise they've got shit commentators!?
Yes, Engelaar was a revelation
last night.
I think that's the best I've ever seen GVB play as well.
GVB was getting a slagging off my housemate
moments later he clears it off the line which lead to the Dutch scoring.
Girls Vs Boys?
Tyldesley's hyperbolemeter
was off the chart again. Holland played well and capitalised on scoring early against a side that isn't built for come-backs and he calls it one of the "great dutch performances" and im sure i heard a "total football" or two sneak out. I detest that man
I can't remember the last
game I watched involving Holland when 'total football' wasn't mentioned in passing.
See also: Brazil/samba; German/efficiency; Italy/cultured
Some shit team/dogged
Scotland/Workmanish
Spanish/Emotional
I thought of Tom Huddlestone when I saw Engelaar
It was a great game of football last night, one of the most enjoyable I've seen in a while and it makes me feel confident in my backing of the Dutch :)
I hope there's more games like that and less like the France match.
I suspect there will be more games featuring Holland
than France
Don't say that
I got France in the work sweepstake so I'm backing them to turn it around :P
Engelaar
is HuddlestoneMAX! I love him.
My thoughts
Sneijder is one of the best midfielders in the world. His technique is superb and he covers an insane amount of ground. Wonderful player.
Both holding midfielders were excellent for the Dutch.
Kuyt only got the chance to show his presence of mind for that third goal because he has the touch of a rapist.
Malouda and Abidal has to be the tournament's worst left-side combination. WHAT THE FUCK DOES MALOUDA ACTUALLY DO?
Chivu on Ribery = tackle of the tournament thus far.
Domenech is a really poor coach. His utter failure to change things tactically cost France any chance of three points.
Would people please stop calling Anelka a 'natural goalscorer.' His ratio has only been better than one in three at one club.
Domenech
is a keen astrologer, and refuses to pick Scorpios.
Was that not the reason Barthexz started ahead of Coupet at the WC?
I get the feeling he doesn't pay much attention to the Premiership, or indeed the Champions League, if he's picking Abidal over Evra and leaving out
Flamini altogether.
I enjoyed the Holland match.
That's all I really have to say. Transfer speculation can kiss my buns.
At Last
Euro 2008 starts. What a game last night. Its not often that you can say a team lost 3-0 but still could have easily won it. My prediction of Holland finishing bottom of that group look rather stupid now.
Sneijder was magnificent, as was GVB (Did he really play for us at some point?), and as for Engelaar, the man is a collusus.
As for Van Nistelrooys goal ('He was so offside he was out of the stadium' Tom Evans), thats what he is there for. A good striker always plays to the whistle, and it was a fantastic instinctive finish.
Kudos Holland
That France game was the footballing equivalent of being told you have 3 weeks to live.
You're right about
Van Nistelrooy. You could tell he thought he was offside himself when he went off to celebrate. You're right though, he did well. Finish first then ask questions later.
He survived Beechers Brook
but fell at the Chair. Did he Clive? Did he really? He didn't did he.
That was one of the worst pieces of commentary of all time.
Aaron Ramsey then, eh?
Whilst I'm obviously happy about it, I'm finding it difficult to get massively excited about this one just now
Too many 17 year olds spoil the broth? Well, perhaps not spoil it, but it's becoming harder to pick out the taste with so many ingredients chucked in
Or something
I agree
whilst it's obviously good to have a 'team for the future', we've had that the last 3 years now. WE NEED EXPERIENCE.
It's OK though
We've got 20 year old Song on a long term deal!
The comments on the BBC forums make me laugh more than usual today
"of corse he was offside
how can panucci play him on if he wasnt even on the damn pitch.
how was it clever officiating, nonsense"
er, because the rules say so, bozo
"Nobody has heard of this rule..they make the rules up as they go along.."
i really hope someone important's reading that and they sue you for defamation or slander or whatever it is
"Yet again FIFA has turned football in to a laughing stock and should be held accountable."
funny, you're the first person to suggest this has made football a 'laughing stock', so i presume you mean 'i don't agree with this decision so i'll try and discredit them'. you're the laughing stock
lol etc
I'm aware that some people will have already mentioned some of these points.
Holland played well, although I think the 3-0 scoreline flattered them and Italy were obviously unlucky with the first goal. Sneijder and Van Der Vaart impressed me, the Dutch probably benefitted from not having "too many cooks" with Robben out and Van Persie only making a substitute appearance. I wouldn't write Italy off though.
The ITV commentry was terrible as usual, the Dutch were good but not as amazing as they were made out to be. I agree that Pleat couldn't stop himself from mentioning Kuyt and his workrate, ok we get the point, he works really hard, now shut up about it and concentrate on commentating properly. The coverage of this game just made me appreciate the BBC so much more.
France lacked any real anything and I'm praying they get knocked out, I fancied Romania to get a draw but didn't expect France to show so little ambition against the weakest team in the group. Why they didn't pick Trezeguet is completely beyond me, that team needs a goal poacher.
I thought Italy looked poor
and devoid of pace and ideas going forward. And I have never seen Camoronesi have a good game.
I still think they'll get through the group though.
Italy never have pace, they still won the world cup though.
Gennaro Le Bouef
I was thinking
exactly the same about Camoranesi last night. Italy looked so much better once Grosso, Del Piero and to a certain extent Cassano came on.
I've never seen him have
a good game but I like the look of him. Yep.
I completely agree
about Camoronesi. I don't watch Italian footabll that often, but I have seen him play for Juve in Europe, and for Italy, and I can't remember him having a good game.
Why the fuck did Grosso not start?
Cos Panucci is Donadoni's bumchum
My half Italian mate reckons Panucci is the worst player in their whole squad.
Camoranesi is both rubbish and obviously a horrible bloke.
^Panucci isn't that good..
..he only gets in the team becuase of Donadoni.
Offside?
I thought if a player was outside the playing area he wasn't considered 'active'? Or did I imagine this from one of the many changes to the offside rule?
He has to ask permisission to leave the field
of play. It's one of those quirks, basically prevents, say, defenders on the posts just stepping behind the goal line to catch someone offside. Personally, I thought it was a good decision; if they hadn't given it, they'd have basically been rewarding Italy for Buffon's mistake with the punch.
Ah, that makes sense
Though for some reason I think I remember players stepping behind the line to ensure they were not flagged as offside.. hmm.
Keepers are usually
rewarded for making errors when they get a free kick every time they make a hash of collecting a cross.
Very true
but in this case, it would have been rewarding Buffon for fucking up under no pressure whatsoever and then taking his own player off the pitch; I realise that ultimately that has nothing to do with whether the decision was correct, but it seems like justice according to my spurious reasoning.
There was a really similar incident in Serie A last season, but I can't remember which way the decision went.
why didn't you call this thread Oranjeboom? :(
Engelaar looked great last night, though he did get the ball stuck under his feet a little often.
Sneijder + van der Vaart + Dirk Kuyt, though = attacking midfield orgasm
AND they brought Afellay off the bench, who's ridiculously highly related, apparently.
That shout Afellay had
made me whoop with joy.
Also. WAS THAT KHALID BOULAROUZ PLAYING RIGHT BACK LAST NIGHT?!
Looked world class
indeed he did
I was very impressed. I wonder if Chelsea will make an attempt to keep him if he carries on like this.
I liked the smile between Gatuso and the ref
There I said it.
cos the ref knew he should have sent him off?
more the panic on the face
of Gattuso which quickly transformed into a smile which the ref reciprocated. It's montage heaven.
i suggested that this was the reason last night
and was shouted down.
now i feel vindicated.
Almost all the newspapers today
are saying that it should have been offside and those that do accept the officials actually know the rules of the game rather than the idiots that commentate on it say the rules are wrong. You have to count players behind the line as active otherwise players could use it to their advantage on too many occasions.
But Bolton
used it as a free-kick tactic a couple of years ago. Had two players stand behind the line on the posts and run on when the ball was played. And that was't offside. So somewhere down the line the rule has changed. When I was a kid, the rule was always someone off the pitch can't influence an offside and I think that was fair myself.
I personally think the rule should be that the player off the pitch only becomes active if he comes onto the pitch between the pass/shot being made and the recipient passing/shooting himself. Panucci where he was last night was not interfering with play in any way shape or form and shouldn't have been counted as such. If the law says he should, the officials can't do anything about it, but if that's the case as it appears it is, it's a stupid rule.
They didn't stand off the pitch
They stood out on the sides of the box and ran back when the kick was taken, and they were officially deemed inactive. They only scored once from it, anyway, and that when Ian Walker threw it into his own net.
the suggestion could be made that
his mere presence there can influence play. if you realise a player has gone behind the goalline you may be expecting him to rush onto the pitch at any moment, particularly if you can't see that he is on the floor. that expectation could be just as influential as the reality, at least in theory.
Then you may as well completely remove the word 'influence'
from the ruling. Because any player inactive could theoretically influence the play somehow and you could claim as a player that it influenced you. If a player lying on the ground five yards off the pitch on the other side of the goal is influencing play, no defender playing anyone onside will ever not be interfering with play.
Everfyone complained
about the Bolton free kick though. People said it was totally unfair and the rules were stupid. The opposite happens and everyone reacts exactly the same. People will never be happy with the offside rule no matter what form it takes. They should just scrap it and allow people to goal hang.
What about my suggestion?
That would have outlawed what Bolton did but made last night's goal offside. Seems to solve both problems.
I still think your
definition allows scope for a defender to simply step off the pitch and play everyone in front of him off side, which would be a ridiculous situation. The area past the goal line has to be considered active when the players are still 'in play'.
That could so easily be dealt with, though
Instead of fitting the rule around a potential (extremely risky) cheat by a defender. Just write into the rules 'any time the officials believe a player has deliberately moved off the playing surface in an attempt to play an attacker offside, that player will remain active and any goal scored will be legal'.
Not 100% foolproof. But I really can't see defenders taking that risk, leaving players unmarked in the middle of their own box with the ball coming in. It would be suicide.
From the Mirror
"While Van Nistelrooy's opener was an incomprehensibly bad decision from the linesman, who must surely be sent home in disgrace by UEFA"
and
"But on 26 minutes the former Manchester United striker did find the net - courtesy of one of the worst offside decisions ever. As the striker turned home Sneijder's low shot deep inside the six-yard box, he looked across knowing he was at least two yards beyond the last active defender - with Christian Panucci lying injured deep behind the dead-ball line.
Somehow, ridiculously, the flag stayed down from the Swedish official."
For all the shit referees get they surely should at least get praised when they get it right.
Agreed
I've been quite impressed with the refereeing on the whole so far. They've let a few things go and don't seem to be standing for any nonsense from players writhing around 'injured'.
ah but they havent booked anyone for diving,
even when they have signalled that a dive has happened
that's true
apart from that they've done ok...
Ha ha I love journalists
I'm pretty much spending the morning reading all the reports just to see what they made of the decision. In the Independent they claim:
"The other pressing concern was why the Swedish referee Peter Frojdfeldt allowed Ruud van Nistelrooy's 25th minute goal to stand when the former Manchester United striker was at least three yards offside"
Even without all the controversy he was only just ahead of the defender when the ball was played, there was still some of his body in line with the last man. Hardly '3 yards off side'. Journalists are idiots, and if they are going to talk about football they should at leat know the rules of the game.
The Times
accepted that the goal was legitimate but went on to call it farcical and that it should prompt FIFA to look at it again.
greast reshult lascht night yah?
i told you italy were going to be crap
re. the offside
i'm fairly sure the linesman just got it wrong. i dont think they were counting the guy off the pitch.
This is very possible
but will never tell anyone and will always make out like he is some kind of officiating genius.
When did you tell us this?
yesterdays thread.
every thread so far on the football.
"italy will not be very good"
Sorry, I don't listen to you.
Actually, I'm not even sorry.
I just don't listen to you.
cool
In his Euro 2008 thread yesterday
RVP's little spin and shot
had me excited.
i liked his right foot left foot balla bouncing
that hair though
Tintin special
Re: France v Romania
I think any teams who play in a goalless draw should be automatically disqualified. Yeah.
I like this idea.
From any competition ever.
you should go to the USA
I also want to disqualify Italy
for being to good looking.
they're not as fit as they used to be
I dunno, I'd rather Luca Toni than Roberto Baggio
Or Franco Baresi, urgh!
good idea
This is from the same idea-book
as 'draws should be banned'.
Spain v Russia later
thoughts?
Think it'll be very close. One goal in it. But Spain to get it.
Spain are my choice to win it
and Russia are my dark horses.
I think Spain will edge it. 3-2. Or so my predictor thing says.
likewise
(although i fancied Italy until last night)
I missed out on Russia at 50-1 a couple of weeks ago. They're 20s now.
Russia to win
as there hasn't been a shock result yet and there alwsys has to be a shock result
I hope so!
I'm still waiting for a game where both sides score.
Spain to win 2-0
It was a good, entertaining game
Which I loved, but Tyldesly must've been watching a highlight reel of a different game the way he was spunking on.
Whilst obviously the goal was onside for the reasons outlined in the thread, you do have to feel for Italy given RVN was being played onside by a man in a heap 4 yards off the pitch. I was immensely impressed to see Donnadoni's comments today. What a good sport.
I was just generally impressed with the sportsmanship last night
I can think of a one or two exceptions, but for the most part the players behaved respectfully towards eachother, did their best to stay on their feet and generally left the ref alone
Even Van Nistelrooy
passed up the opportunity to trip over his own feet.
I was fully expecting Donadoni
to call the ref and linesmen 'sons of bitches'
Pleat
made up the word 'superble' at one point.
i love the way,
even in an international tournament, ITV can still bang on about liverpool and man u for an entire programme.
"oh dirk kuyt is very unlcuky with the shot, but then provides a perfect cross for the goal"
WHAT?! he misses an open goal and then nearly succeeds in looping it over van bronkhorsts head. everytime they mentioned anything, dirk was the man. also. david pleat is such a dick.
"everything about the football from the dutch has been great. great passing...great tactics...great..." TWAT
Kuyt's cross was clearly a cross
and it couldn't have been much better.
bot loopy tho.
and not as wank worthy as pleat made out. this is the point. good but not cum time
Well you can speak for yourself on that one
I passionately hate David Pleat
I can't say this enough.
I'm sure
I'm one of the few people who actually don't mind him.
Probably, but you like Thatcher as well
so I'll let it pass.
He is AWFUL though, the fact he has some 'football director' type job at Forest makes me want to cry.
Bizarrely, I think he's actually a sound tactician
But he can't commentate for shit. For Van Horse Face's goal, he kept referring to the "corner" that came in. No, David - it wasn't a corner. Then they showed a replay, clearing showing the cross floating in about 20 yards in from the byline
"Italy just couldn't deal with that corner"
IT WASN'T A FUCKING CORNER
I've siad it once and I'll say it again..
..don't write Italy off.
*said
Italy off.
oooooooooooh
I know you wouldn't be that naive ht27.
You don't fool me.
minor win
the only reason to not write Italy off
is because France and Romania yesterday looked to be the footballing equivalent of three-day-old crusty spunk.
my favourite line
was when they were showing the fixtures and they described the next game featuring "Ronaldo's Portugal".
Jeez I didn't realise they'd given him the key to the country.
Seriously i'd be so pissed off to be a portugese player and have to listen to crap like Ronaldo's Portugal!
Oh god yes.
It's as if everyone in Britain is Ronaldo's biggest fan. Stop it.
I'm looking forward to the inevitable
images of Ronaldos screwed up face battling to control the tears that slide down his Seal-esque skin.
The highlight
of any tournament is seeing that greasy diving cunt have a cry.
I'm quite looking forward to this.
Gary Lewin the Arsenal physio left today
And joined England full time as part of their restructuring. A bit of a shame as he had been with the club for 30 years and was one of the most respected in the world. Good luck to him and i'm sure it's the right decision by England and hope it will benfit their set up. He won't be easy to replace although I have heard we are after the Norwich physio.
SPEND MY MONEY!!:
I am looking to place a bet on:
First Goalscorers (one for each of the 4 teams playing tonight)
Anytime Goalscorers
Spain Russia - more than 2 goals?
gimme some names.
villa first goalscorer?
5-1 on paddypower. iniesta at 14-1.
2-1 to spain is 15-2, i might have a pop at that.
I've gone for Mellberg
at 25/1.
also had 10p on Larsson or Ibrahimovic to score a hattrick.
Eto'o is not moving to spurs.
http://www.sportinglife.com/football/overseas/spain/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=soccer/08/06/10/manual_093223.html&TEAMHD=spain
"Tottenham, and I hope the English fans will forgive me, are a club in mid-table and I need more," Eto'o told CRTV.
fair enough :(
when it's a jar!
timing!